Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [Harp-L] SPAH 2010 Comb Test: Retraction & Apology

[EGS1217@xxxxxxx]

Excuse me, Pat - but I don't quite understand why anyone would 'fight  a 
debate' so vehemently against something which really doesn't  affect them 
personally, especially declaring an issue 'hogwash' to people  who perhaps might 
just as strongly maintain the opposite  point of view. Would you not 
perhaps be just a tad annoyed if someone  attacked your own personal playing point 
of view thusly? Why not live and let  live? 
 
 It's a big World and individuals can still play what  they want (freedom 
of choice and all that).  As far as Rob Paparozzi's  post - I couldn't agree 
more with HIS take on things...and he's someone who  plays chromatics and 
diatonics for a living, both to wonderful  effect.  If you weren't at this 
past SPAH then you didn't get to hear  him perform on both types and slay his 
audiences. Rob's a great singer as  well as an all-round entertainer.
 
As a little 'test' of my own - I took one of my Super 64's - put on its  
brand new cherry-wood covers (bought recently from a Slidemeister whose hobby 
is  woodworking)  - and then played it at different venues (the GSHC club) 
and  for different groups of people at SPAH ...some of whom I had not 
prepared...  they weren't looking at the instrument as I played, being seated as I  
stood behind them.   'I' can hear the difference between it and my other  
Super 64's with their regular covers.  Several pro chromatic players  
expressed complete surprise by just how much more muted was the sound compared  to 
how that particular instrument usually sounds, so turned around to see  just 
what it was they were hearing.....  True, this is anecdotal evidence,  but 
it's just as valid to our ears as your claims are to you. 
 
I know those musicians: know their playing creds (and most of them are  
gigging jazz musicians with long histories of playing all kinds of harmonicas). 
 I don't know you at all.<G> 
 
You can feel free to play your 'other-bodied' harmonicas...no one will give 
 you grief. I play them as well, most notably my collection of CX-12's. But 
 I certainly don't feel it's anyone else's place to make such a fuss about  
wood bodies or covers...or condemn harmonica manufacturers for continuing 
to  make them nor come down so hard on those players who prefer wood. Why 
can't  someone play what he/she likes without being constantly chastized?
 
David Payne is a liker of wood bodied harps..he just plain LIKES wood for  
its own sake and has expressed this several times in his how-to videos. It  
doesn't mean he plays wood combed harps exclusively, rather he reserves the  
right to like what he likes, and doesn't care who approves. I admire the  
heck out of him for not being afraid to stand up and make that  statement. 
How boring life would be were we all to enjoy the same  things, including 
music (a point I've made many times before on this list and  Slidemeister). 
Stepford lives, anyone?  It's whatever floats your  boat....and vive la 
difference..
 
I most certainly agree with Rob and know we're certainly not the only  two 
people who can hear the difference from wood, to plastic, to metal, and  as 
several pro players declared in a quite lively informal discussion at  SPAH 
who also could hear differences:  the bottom line is what's most  important 
in what the player hears since it affects how he/she plays,  ergo how the 
performance is transmitted to the audience. That's all that  really matters.
 
 
A great many players write me offlist (and on Facebook) who find  the very 
idea of a test conducted at SPAH as the 'final word'   for all harmonica 
players a bit absurd...given that these people  are primarily from overseas, 
don't go to SPAH and don't consider the  findings of a handful of people here 
in America as the final word on  ANYthing. 
 
 In fact, there was much discussion at SPAH itself by many people  who 
still want nothing to do with it, don't bother posting or responding  simply 
because of not wishing to be harangued on harmonica lists if  they dare mention 
their love for wood-bodied chromatics. They simply keep their  own counsel, 
and keep right on playing their Hohner pear-wood harmonicas.  :)
 
Elizabeth
 
PS: To compare my experiences with yours  I own several  wood-combed 
chromatics which still play beautifully, are all at least  30 years old and whose 
combs haven't swelled, warped, cracked or had their  finish come off 
contrary to your assertions. My oldest, a 10 hole Hohner  chromatic, is still as 
beautiful sounding as it was when first  made - likely 70 years ago. Perhaps 
it's all in your own personal mileage?
 
PPS: I've just read John Walden's post - and am somewhat taken  aback by 
his experiences. I took MY wood-bodied chroms to Arizona in 2006  (Bonfiglio's 
Seminar at the Grand Canyon) - they were with me in Phoenix and  Scottsdale 
as well for vacation after, and two weeks previously I had them  along with 
me at Denver, SPAH (extremely high altitudes).   They  then came back with 
me to extremely humid Long Island, during the height of  moist weather 
conditions here (I'm a few miles from the water at just above  sea level).  I 
didn't have central air in my home at the time....exposing  them to nearly as 
extreme conditions as John has described in the  Philippines. At the time I 
played Super 64's, 270's and 260's almost  exclusively. They all survived 
very nicely (sans humidor). I've had only one  single chromatic body crack over 
the years - the twin of my favourite little  260. It happened far more 
recently, and purely because the chromatic was  dropped onto a hard surface.
 
So what's to account for this - Am I just lucky?  Or am I simply one  out 
of hundreds of thousands of wood-bodied chromatic owners who find the  whole 
bias against wood just a wee bit silly?
 
 
 
Message: 9
Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2010 15:34:58 -0500 (CDT)
From: Pat  Powers <patpowers@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [Harp-L] SPAH  2010 Comb Test: Retraction &
Apology
To:  EGS1217@xxxxxxx
Cc: harp-l@xxxxxxxxxx, 3N037@xxxxxxxxxxx,  bren@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

I think your test was fine, and the data was  conclusive.  The comb 
material does not have much -- if any -- effect on  tone or play-ability.  I 've 
been fighting this debate with the wood-comb  traditionalists for years -- My 
stand is that there is absolutey no benefit to  having a wooden comb.  They 
swell, they warp, they crack, the finish comes  off - in other words, it's a 
terrible base material.  In todays world with  so many hybrid composite 
materials available, I can't understand why anyone  would intentionally want a 
wooden comb.  Some traditionalists claim the  wood comb sounds warmer.  To 
that I say, HOGWASH!!!  And, now I think  your test proves it -- the comb 
material doesn't matter!

The only  requirements of the base material is that it is dense, 
non-porous, easy to  machine, is planarized well (nice and flat), and won't warp or 
crack.   
Perfect case in point, the Hohner Special-20, it sounds sweet and warm, and 
 it has a plastic comb.  Add that SPAH test results, and I'd say that's  
pretty conclusive.  I'm convinced the comb material really doesn't  matter.  
The sound comes from the reeds, the cover cavity, and the players  technique. 


-- My 2 cents

patpowers@xxxxxxxxxxx

Sep 1,  2010 02:35:45 PM, EGS1217@xxxxxxx wrote:


I'd think so, given  Brendan's own words:

"Though I now feel our test was fatally flawed and  therefore inconclusive, 
I
believe Vern and I have contributed a lot in  working out useful procedures
that can be used in such a future test."  

Kudos to Brendan for being exactly who I thought he was: a stand up guy  
who's honest to a fault. His was a classy post. Takes a big person to 
openly  
apologize and admit mistakes.

I personally still believe any future  test should include a hearing expert 
whether an audiologist,  otolaryngologist or another medical professional 
with proper credentials  acceptable to all participating, purely to ensure 
that all participants are  at least of the same level hearing-ability wise. 
This is one of those  'other' factors I think yet to be included. But 
that's 
just my opinion and  would influence my personal acceptance of any claimed 
'final' results, given  that many musicians (testers, listeners and 
onlookers) have spent years  exposed to high levels of noise which could 
potentially 
affect their  hearing.


Elizabeth

"Message: 3
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010  09:36:08 -0400
From: joe leone <3n037@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re:  [Harp-L] SPAH 2010 Comb Test: Retraction & Apology
To: Brendan Power  

Cc: Harp L Harp L 

On Sep 1, 2010, at 1:51 AM, Brendan Power  wrote:

> Thanks to Vern for his comprehensive round up of our recent  Comb 
> Test at
> SPAH.

Does this mean that we're back to  square  one.
smo-joe
>
------------------------------